unpopular opinions no. 92:

[parthenia]

I feel I ought to have an opinion about OTW, just because of the sheer volume of posts about OTW crossing my screen, but I still don't really get it.

Also, the emphasis on 'female community' drives me fucking mental. Sorry. I have many female friends, I think many women are awesome, I can see that fanfic brings loads of women together in a wonderfully countercultural anti-capitalist way, and I think it's marvellous that female fans organise stuff in spite of their ladyparts...I even am a woman myself. But I just don't get it with claiming the femaleness of the fanfic writing community as some special condition in need of praise and attention.

I mean. It's mostly a product of the sodding subject matter, isn't it? The majority of open source code writers are probably male. Gamers are predominantly male. Do they spend their time warbling about what a quintessentially male community they've created, apart from the couple of female programmers and gamers who've wandered by who are a bit of an anomaly but are all right PROVIDING THEY PLAY BY OUR RULES???? DO THEY? Actually maybe they do.

GAH. GAAAAAH, I SAY.

OK. I know I'm out of line with many of you. I just think that our attempts to claim the moral high ground for our odd little hobbies are very strange indeed.

If I had more time, I would love to explore the world of machinima a bit more (films and videos made using gaming software, like World of Warcraft); my son watches simple Runescape videos on Youtube.

I love the fact that the Internet has helped all this amateur, underground culture flourish. I came across a site today with links to recent good machinima,like this rather nice music video. Beautiful texture. Note the quintessentially male comments on the video. *g*

ETA, post-metafandom linkage. Oh holy fuck. I did not intend a personal rant dashed off on a Friday to be listed by Metafandom (to the point where I nearly specifically said so). Still, this is the way of the interwebs. I will reply to comments, eventually. Please be nice.

ETA 2: Don't you lot have homes to go to? *clears glasses, wipes tables, starts to stack chairs*

Comments

[mskatej.livejournal.com]

The dumbest thing I saw yesterday was the claim that fandom is not just a female space but a *feminist* space.

LOL WTF

Sorry, but I've seen way too much casual misogyny in fandom to accept that claim as anything other than absurd. And if someone thinks that finding slash hot and hanging out online with other women is all it takes to be a feminist, they're doing it wrong.

[parthenia14.livejournal.com]

There is an argument to be made by someone with a much thicker skin that women writing m/m slash is inherently self-hating and dysfunctional. Although, hot. Yeah.

[featherofeeling.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you on the casual misogyny in fandom--but I don't think that makes the whole claim absurd. I think the space lends itself to feminst principles being enacted, although not everything that happens here is by any means. (I expanded on it below and temaris expressed it better than I did.)

[f4f3.livejournal.com]

OTW? What's that, then?
As previously noted, I'm of the generation when any sort of fandom was the preserve of virginal white males, so I think it's wonderful that there are any women at all involved in any form of fandom. But people wanting to build a wall round the ghetto? Hmm, strangeness.

[parthenia14.livejournal.com]

Organization for Transformative Works. It - oh, Google it, it's too hard to explain.

[anthimaeria.livejournal.com]

Yes. Yes. Yes. And yes. I'm waiting for this hubbub to pass. Which it will.

I think it's marvellous that female fans organise stuff in spite of their ladyparts...

Yes, we just cram it all up our vaginas.

[parthenia14.livejournal.com]

I think what makes me wary - and I know it may well just be me - is the shift from 'this is female-dominated which is interesting' to 'this is female-dominated and therefore better, or perfect, or not to be targeted by the powers that be'.

[temaris.livejournal.com]

The simple matter is that gamers and programmers are generally surprised when a female turns up. Their default assumption is that all their fellows are male. They don't declare a 'male space' because they don't need to. I think this would be described as male privilege. They're cool with it, they think it's great -- but their default assumption on a gender neutral name is that it's a bloke.

The default assumption on a gender neutral name within media fandom, for me, is that it's a woman -- it's not always true, and it's cool when it turns out to be a bloke, I think it's great. Maybe this is female privilege, or female media fan privilege -- but I don't see a lot of female privilege, so I couldn't swear to it ... *g*

I have other problems with OTW. But objecting to them stating that historically media fandom has been female dominated is ridiculous. It's not a statement of intent, or a statement of division or exclusion. It is a fact, and a fact that I keep seeing people automatically recoiling at. I don't know why. Maybe because OMG it's not true! or OMG women media fans are asserting a history for themselves! or OMG they're excluding anyone else from participating!

Because female fans should shut up about their own history. Because women in a majority position should pretend that isn't really true. Because stating that a history contains fact X means that it will and can only ever continue containing fact X. Because stating a historical fact means we hate men. (bwuh?)

Such alarums over something so absurd. Objecting to a fact of history is... kind of ridiculous.

I hope you know that I am as aware of misogyny and misandry in fandom; of female misogyny to both fellow fans and to characters; of some women's disdain for and ill manners to male fen. But to pretend that the numbers and facts are not in fact something worth mentioning is silly.

It's interesting, and different, and worth knowing. Not because 'only women are allowed', but because it's historically been a closed female culture, and we don't have many of them. Not because 'no men allowed', there are, always have been men involved and 'allowing' never came into it; but because it's one of the few things that they haven't been in the majority for. And there aren't many of those, especially where the men and women haven't really cared about the gender split, or the numbers.

Particularly it's important when women asserting their historical presence as majority participants in something precipitates such ire.

Weirdly, I had my doubts about them including that statement -- and the more objections I see, the more glad I am they included it.

[mskatej.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with you. I'm incredibly confused by all the objections to fandom being referred to as a predominantly female space, given that it's factually accurate.

[parthenia14.livejournal.com]

I think I slightly misexpressed myself in dashing this off, because I was really thinking of the 'female and therefore feminist' or perhaps more simply 'female and therefore mystically positive'. Female because there are lots of women, involved, yes, and that of course that's interesting, but female and therefore automatically better = not so sure.

[khym-chanur.livejournal.com]

The default assumption on a gender neutral name within media fandom, for me, is that it's a woman -- it's not always true, and it's cool when it turns out to be a bloke, I think it's great. Maybe this is female privilege, or female media fan privilege --

I don't think so. I'm a man and I tend to assume that a fandom person is female until proven otherwise, just because it's very likely to be true.

[esorlehcar.livejournal.com]

They don't declare a 'male space' because they don't need to. I think this would be described as male privilege. They're cool with it, they think it's great -- but their default assumption on a gender neutral name is that it's a bloke.

*nodding* Exactly. Men are considered the default; they don't need to "warble about what a quintessentially male community they've created" in the same way white people don't need to warble about the quintessentially white communities they've created (unless you're talking about white pride organizations, which are a whole different ball of wax). That's what privilege is.

One of the reasons I've always valued fandom as much as I have is that it's one of the few spaces I know (outside of feminism-specific sites) where, sans a "girly" username, I'm not automatically assumed to be male just because I'm articulate and blunt. Hell, I've been attacked on more than one occasion for "pretending" to be a man on message boards, because I didn't specifically say "I am a woman" and therefore people assumed.

I don't know enough about OTW to really have an opinion about the organization either way, but there's been a whole lot of posts about how crazy it makes people that OTW wants to celebrate fandom as female space, and I don't get that at all.

[featherofeeling.livejournal.com]

Oh, I didn't see this comment until after I posted mine, or it would have been shorter. Well said.

[laura-holt-pi.livejournal.com]

My objection to the statement is not an objection to them stating a fact (if it is a fact - it doesn't match my experience of fandom) but to their declaration that they are proud of the fact, as if having more men in fandom would diminish it. These are the same feminists who would tear a man to shreds if he talked about how anything was good because it was "a male space".

Sexism is sexism, whichever side is treated badly.

[slashpine.livejournal.com]

Thanks for saying this. It's clear that there are a lot of fans who think that female=feminist=something biologically defined. Female is a biological fact (or choice). Feminist is a political decision, a sociological pattern, an ethical framework -- and that's why I love OTW emphasizing that.

I am quick to say that groups of women who think they're special because they're women? Or that the interaction will somehow be more X, or Y, or Z, because they're women? GAH. No. I have no more interest in naively self-centered, self-congratulatory groups who are women than I have when they are men.

But feminism as a stance, as a philosphy, as an intentional ethical and political transformation? OMG yes. Some of the best feminists I know - of this standpoint perspective - are men. It has nothing to do with biological gender!

GAH, I wish more women would realize that. And men, too. But I'm here for the fun, and teaching Feminism 101 at midnight on my weekend is not fun. So I'll simply wish OTW lots of luck on all the education they are going to have to do, when those who are the *most wrong* tend to be the *most emphatic* and un-listening.

Thanks for your lucid explanation.

[f4f3.livejournal.com]

I suppose a simple test is to try reading the phrase: "As science-fiction writers we are proud and honour our heritage of being predominately male" and ask if that raises any similar hackles.

[snorkackcatcher]

I think the analogy with open-source is an interesting one -- in fact, it struck me while I was reading this that I see the shared space and community effort features a lot in my other big hobby, philately, despite the fact that the gender ratio is pretty much the exact inverse of fandom, which suggests it may be more a function of a type of culture, not necessarily something linked specifically to gender.

As for OTW/AOOO, my attitude has basically been: nice idea, but I'll wait till something concrete emerges before getting too interested. Until then, it's just wibbling.

[parthenia14.livejournal.com]

Interesting. I didn't have anything else to compare it with, but there are all sorts of shared interest groups, aren't there?

OTW - yes, I've also been waiting until it actually changes into something concrete. The part of it that seems to be about legitimising fanfic is making me slightly go 0.o but I'll wait to see what happens. Can't actually imagine it impacting on my life, but there you go.

[sollersuk.livejournal.com]

I'm supposed to be part of a "community" that includes fangirls? DO NOT WANT.

[parthenia14.livejournal.com]

LOL. *offers the batshit*

[kiwisue.livejournal.com]

I think that women who claim some kind of feminist and/or moral position about what we do really need to a) get over themselves, b) get out more, and c) get laid.
That was a little over the top. You appear to be saying that because you're into fan fiction for one reason it's bad for others to posit different ideas, theories even, about why we (collectively, not individually) do what we do. That's nonsense. And (hoping you got my first point) you should be able to work out for yourself where you went wrong in shifting from disparaging ideas to attacking the people who express them.

ETA Also, my bad for not saying: here from metafandom

[laura-holt-pi.livejournal.com]

Thanks! So good to see somebody who talks sense on this matter.

[parthenia14.livejournal.com]

I think 'sense' may be going a little far, but thank you.

[jaybee65.livejournal.com]

I'm here via metafandom and just wanted to say thank you for posting the link to the machinima site! I've been intrigued about it ever since I first heard it compared to vidding but haven't had the free time to search it out on my own -- this looks like a useful place to start.

[parthenia14.livejournal.com]

Yes, I'd like to see more of these, although I suspect they must be full of in-jokes about the games. I just love the inventiveness, of playing with the source.

(Here from metafandom)

[featherofeeling.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I hadn't thought about the issue in the light of claiming moral high ground, exactly. I guess that would bother me--the "therefore not to be targeted by the powers that be" attitude you mentioned as carried to that extreme. But overall I do think the prevelence of women in fandom is one of its positive attributes. It's not simply because we're women and therefore we're better (which would be female chauvinism, yes), or because I automatically like all mostly-women spaces (heck, no). But I have been thinking of fandom as a place that lends itself in certain ways to feminist principles.

It's not because we have so many women that this makes me happy, because after all a lot of female-dominated spaces just reinforce societal constrictions on what a woman's place should be. But I think that fandom as a community (NOT necessarily in fic) does the opposite. My personal experience of it has shown me a place that tears down traditional limitations of who is qualified to speak and analyze and allows more women to exercise their intellects and voices. I've seen women, as a group often excluded from old boys' networks by their gender, or sometimes from the worlds of intellectual exchange by things like motherhood, form networks of serious discussion, support, and learning here.

It's also good to mention that this type of fandom is a female-dominated space, because that doesn't get recognized much in mainstream discussions of fannishness. Academic conferences about media studies (such as MiT5, I think?) have been dominated by male scholars. I have read of female scholars going to them and feeling marginalized, both in their areas of study (usually of the more female-dominated fan activities) and their credentials. In what academics have considered worth studying and in how the mainstream media represents fannish activity, traditionally "fanboy" pursuits and descriptions are given more weight. Add that to the male privilege that still influences academia, and you have a fan-studying space where men have more visibility and a louder voice. So raising visibility of women in fandom is helpful. And when I go to metafandom and read essays and discussions about fandom in which women predominate, I do find that more than interesting--I find it refreshing and empowering. In the wider world, even as it relates to fannishness, I still feel aware that I am a woman and of the power dynamics involved in that, and so have those scholars that I mentioned. Within fandom, being female is the norm. And I do think that not having to be a woman first and whatever else you are second is a feminist ideal.

So I think the argument is more "this is female-dominated and therefore (potentially) empowering" than "...and therefore good/mystical/holy." And I'm definitely not claiming that all of it's great--I've seen plenty of misogyny in slash fandom, whether it's fans talking about being squicked by 'girl parts' in a fic or women using gendered reasons to hate (http://chopchica.livejournal.com/113054.html) female characters or real women. But overall I do think some of fandom's inherent qualities encourage feminist principles, and that--along with greater visibility of women within overall fannishness--is why it's worth mentioning so much.

Re: (Here from metafandom)

[parthenia14.livejournal.com]

That was very nicely put. And I recognise much of that at times, while still being rather bothered by OTW making it a defining feature of their organisation.

[bar1scorpio.livejournal.com]

How about some off the cuff, as I see it replies?

A) The "OTW was created to work toward a future in which all fannish works are recognized as legal and transformative, and accepted as legitimate creative activity." Bit... Ah, once again, the cry for validation of the child pornographer is loosed into the echo chamber of the internets. Enjoy your underage Harry/Snape 1rst year raep pr0ns. With totally original Mary Sue to help them find their 'true love'.

B) This male-only thing you keep harping on about? Is it just me, or are male-only environments no longer legally allowed? Something with a Title-Number-something is supposed to make sure of that, or something.

C) Did they just roll out the red carpet for the Trolls (http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Troll), who will assume that these little ladies are Asking for it (http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Asking_for_it) and subsequently Raid (http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Raid) the hell out of the place For the Lulz (http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/For_the_lulz), telling them to GB2/Kitchen (http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Kitchen)?

Feh. Of course, my biggest beef is that this is somehow about fanfic writers? Are you kidding me? This groups sole purpose is to legitimize the unwarranted feelings of self-importance of hacks who churn out works starring other people's characters? And somehow, the intent of a group like this will be to shield the hacks from criticism, constructive or not.

[parthenia14.livejournal.com]

Whoever you are, you're scaring me slightly...

[rhythmaning.livejournal.com]

I haven't been online for a week or so. And I have no idea what OTW is. But I did emjoy your rant!